topic Re: Problems with old WLAN Clients after changing the WLAN infrastructure in ExtremeWireless (General)

Problems with old WLAN Clients after changing the WLAN infrastructure

Anonymous — Wed, 03 Mar 2021 20:38:50 GMT

Hello,

we switched our wlan infrastructure at one of our warehouses from old Motorola Symbol Aps using a WEP SSID to our new wlan infrastructure using the XIQ Cloud, with primarily AP410 and a PPSK SSID, using one PPSK for every forklift in the warehouse. (They use an old Win7 embedded OS).

After the switch we noticed several disconnects within the Logistics Software we are using on the terminals to manage the warehouse. We Software keeps losing the connection to the server for a few seconds (from 2-3 seconds to 15-20) and then reconnects. It seems like it’s happening all over the warehouse, even at locations where i can see with our other devices that the wlan connections seems good and stable. What i’ve noticed is that it looks like some sort of roaming problem to me. It seems to me like it is some sort of roaming problem. Maybe the terminals take too long to roam between the aps or having problems with PPSK authentication?

I checked the client monitor to check the clients and noticed a poor client health. Seeing many issues displayed as “The client is configured with an incorrect static IP address or gateway.” Which in fact, seems not to be correct. The forklifts are configured with a static ip, dns and gateway (we dont use DHCP in this VLAN). So what is the cause of this error? Could the be also a hint to our main wlan problem?

If you need any more information, dont hesitate to ask. I appreciate every help. 🙂

Re: Problems with old WLAN Clients after changing the WLAN infrastructure

Ovais_Qayyum — Fri, 05 Mar 2021 00:02:52 GMT

Hi Florian,

The PPSK shouldn’t really cause issues with roaming if the coverage is good. Since there are not many details available, I would like to start off by asking you some questions to better understand the environment:

1- Which Motorola/Symbol AP models did you replace? were those 802.11b/g APs?

2- How the AP replacement was done, was it simply a one-to-one replacement of APs or you conducted a site survey and then determined the no. of 410 APs required. This is important because a one-to-one replacement of older APs often results in such issues due to a difference in 802.11 compliance regulations, antenna gains and patterns, etc. You may think that the coverage would remain the same, but mostly it's not.

3- What are the RF stats on the forklift clients? average RSSI and SNR when they move about the coverage area.

4- Is there a good coverage overlap between APs, say 20%-25%?

5- What PHY rate are you using on the new APs, e.g. 802.11 b/g/n/ac/ax?

6- Did you try updating the driver on the wireless clients?

Regards,

Ovais

Re: Problems with old WLAN Clients after changing the WLAN infrastructure

Anonymous — Fri, 05 Mar 2021 17:26:20 GMT

Hello,

thanks for your response.

Motorola Symbol APs 5131, with a / b / g
We had our reseller do a WLAN Coverage.
Average RSSI around 50-55 / SNR 40-45 → Something else i noticed is the Client Health. Most of the forklifts have a Radio Health of 100, but the Application Health is 0. What does Application Health mean?
How can i find this out? You mean if we have APs that could cover the area of another APs if it goes down?
11Mbit min. in 2,4 Ghz. The Clients cant use 5 Ghz.
Not yet, but indeed, they are pretty old. (2013 i think) The problem on this side is that my colleagues who are responsible for the terminals said that this would cause a major downtime and hard work, so it would only be one of the last things we should do.

Can you tell me something about this “The client is configured with an incorrect static IP address or gateway”? Have you ever heard of this error?

I appreciate your assistance! 🙂

Re: Problems with old WLAN Clients after changing the WLAN infrastructure

Ovais_Qayyum — Fri, 05 Mar 2021 23:48:22 GMT

Hi,

You are seeing “The client is configured with an incorrect static IP address or gateway” because we do alert via Client Monitor under Manage>Tools or from Client360 for a specific device if we suspect a client has a static IP and we're doing that based on DHCP traffic patterns. Currently, this check can’t be disabled. Consider it as a false positive for now because this won’t impact anything.

To your question:

How can I find this out? You mean if we have APs that could cover the area of other APs if it goes down?

(Ovais) What I meant is the coverage overlap which is required for seamless roaming when the client moves between two APs.

Can you confirm that the application does not disconnect if the client is not moving/remains connected to the same AP?

Moving from WEP to PPSK can be one of the reasons as well, PPSK is like WPA2 and it should be treated that way. Make sure your client driver supports WPA2-AES, if it does not, you will have issues.

I would recommend you update the WLAN driver on one of the clients and run the roaming tests on it.

Regards,

Ovais

Re: Problems with old WLAN Clients after changing the WLAN infrastructure

Anonymous — Mon, 08 Mar 2021 16:43:31 GMT

Hello,

Ah ok. Yes, this should be the case.

To your second question. I will try to get this information. Maybe takes some time (the warehouse is at a other location than my office)

Is there something else i can check? Could you give me some informations about the “application health” in the client monitor?

Edit:

I’ve checked the average RSSI of other terminals and noticed that some terminals got an average of -60 to -70 dbm. This, of course, seems to be pretty bad. Could this be caused by much roaming? The warehouse is pretty big and the forklifts often travel through the whole halls.

Re: Problems with old WLAN Clients after changing the WLAN infrastructure

Ovais_Qayyum — Tue, 09 Mar 2021 06:32:05 GMT

Hi,

I guess we also need to know the following about your network:

How many AP410C did you deploy against AP5131?
How many clients do you have connected during the peak time?
How does the channel and Tx power plan look like? is it set to auto channel selection or are you using a static channel plan? In a healthy RF environment, you should not have channel overlap (neighboring APs shouldn't use the same channels), look out for that. If you have floor plan already setup, you can see the current channel plan under “Network 360 Plan”, share it here if you prefer so we can understand your network better:

After you make sure that the channel plan looks good and there is no adjacent channel interference going on, maybe you can start off by checking the following:

Pick a client that has shown issues while roaming. Check the following client stats in Client 360. Look for roaming time value and check RSSI, SNR, Floor Noise and Usage. You can probably send a screenshot of this screen from your setup.

Scroll down on the same screen and check following:
On the AP #show int wifi0 or wifi1 counter // to see stats per interface. Great to see retry, CRC, mDNS counters. If you have retries then you are most probably suffering with an RF problem, either bad coverage, too many APs or too less of APs for far more clients.
If you have 11r,11k,11v enabled on the WLAN, I would recommend you disable those and test, even though these are supposed to help you with roaming but many old clients do not support these and if you have it enabled, it may have an adverse effect on the roaming.

Regards,

Ovais

Re: Problems with old WLAN Clients after changing the WLAN infrastructure

Anonymous — Tue, 09 Mar 2021 20:05:47 GMT

Hello Ovais,

we replaced around 67 Motorlas with 50 Extreme APs. I should note that we got a few outdoor APs (460c) and you wont see all APs on the screenshot down below, because the plant split into one Big and one small hall which i did not screenshot.

On the whole plant? Around 20-30 (10 forklifts, most of the rest are iphones using 5 Ghz in a sepperate SSID)
This is a screenshot of our plan. Sadly we dont have a good layout of the plant, i also haven’t done walls yet, since i dont exactly know where which kind of wall is. In the areas where you can see more APs we have full water / softdrink bottles (we are a Beverage manufacturer) and this results in the water absorbing the wlan signal and creating signal holes. So we needed to place more APs to cover up the holes.
I have created a schedule for the aps to check their neighbor channels every evening and switch channels, if needed.
Here a Screenshot like you requested it. I hope you can see everything you need.

I noticed that i dont see any “roaming time” like in your screenshot. So when i click on the “green bar” i only see the Health Score and errors.
This one is from one of our aps in the truck loading street (2,4Ghz):

#show int wifi0
AC=access category; be=best-effort; bg=background; vi=video; vo=voice;
AIFS=Arbitration Inter-Frame Space; Txoplimit=transmission opportunity limit;
IDP=Intrusion detection and prevention; BGSCAN=background scan; PS=Power save;
HT=High throughput; A-MPDU=Aggregate MAC protocol data unit;
DFS=Dynamic Frequency Selection; CU=Channel Utilization;
EIRP=Effective Isotropic Radiated Power (Transmit Power + Max Antenna Gain + Max TX Chains Gain);
OFDMA=Orthogonal Frequency Division Multiple Access;
BSS_Color= Basic Service Set Color; TWT=Target Wake Time;

Summary state=Fair;
Mode=access; Radio disabled=no;
Admin state=enabled; Operational state=up;
MAC addr=bcf3:103f:6690; MTU=1500;
Freq(Chan)=2462Mhz(11); EIRP power=17.01dBm(10dBm + 4.00dBi + 3.01dBi); Diversit y=disabled;
Tx range=300m; Noise floor=-96dBm; Tx power control=disabled;
Radio profile=default_2.4ghz_gn; IDP profile=N/A;
Application Essentials profile=N/A;
Presence profile=N/A; Presence state=disabled;
Beacon interval=100; Max clients number=100;
Phymode=11ng; Short preamble mode=enabled;
Tx Chain=static 2; Rx Chain=static 2;
A-MPDU=enabled; Short guard interval=enabled;
Channel width=20Mhz; HT-protection=Legacy protect; Deny client=none;
AC=be; CWmin=4; CWmax=6; AIFS=3; Txoplimit=0; NoACK=disabled;
AC=bg; CWmin=4; CWmax=10; AIFS=7; Txoplimit=0; NoACK=disabled;
AC=vi; CWmin=3; CWmax=4; AIFS=1; Txoplimit=3008; NoACK=disabled;
AC=vo; CWmin=2; CWmax=3; AIFS=1; Txoplimit=1504; NoACK=disabled;
Rx packets=276887294; errors= 48723; dropped= 1;
Tx packets= 34298939; errors=4230276; dropped=21125;
Rx bytes=524686103 (500.380 MB); Tx bytes=2513043275 (2.340 GB);
ACSP use last selection=disabled;
BGSCAN allow=enabled; BGSCAN during voice=disabled; BGSCAN interval=20 minutes;
BGSCAN with client=enabled; BGSCAN with PS client=disabled;
Number of BGSCAN=29297; Number of BGSCAN requested=34168; Number of BGSCAN missed=4871;
DFS=disabled; Number of detected radar signals=0; DFS static-channel restore=disabled;
LLDP state=N/A; CDP state=N/A;
Rx airtime=3056.24 s; Tx airtime=16748.40 s; CRC error airtime=1268.70 s;
Rx airtime percent=0.00%; Tx airtime percent=0.00%; CRC error airtime percent=0.16%;
Tx utilization=1%; Rx utilization=2%; Interference utilization=1%; Total utilization=4%;
Backhaul failover=disable;
Radio-share mode=off; channel-change=disable;
Running average Tx CU=2%; Rx CU=4%; Interference CU=2%; Noise=-95dBm;
Short term means average Tx CU=2%; Rx CU=4%; Interference CU=2%; Noise=-95dBm;
Snapshot Tx CU=2%; Rx CU=4%; Interference CU=1%; Noise=-95dBm;
CRC error rate=19%;
Benchmark 11a score=222000; 11b score=50500; 11g score=222000; 11n score=501000; 11ac score=889000; 11ax score=889000;
OFDMA downlink=disabled;
OFDMA uplink=disabled;
TWT=disabled;
BSS Color=0;
A-MSDU=disabled; A-MPDU limit=1048575;
VHT support in 2.4G interface=disabled;
Frameburst=enabled;
Alternate radio profile=disabled;
Primary radio profile=default_2.4ghz_gn;
DSSS 20Mhz power:
Board limit=20dBm(1) 20dBm(2) -(3) -(4); Regulatory limit=18dBm(1) 19dBm(2) -(3) -(4);
Spectral scan=off;
The signal by pass BPF.

This one from one within the halls:

show int wifi0
AC=access category; be=best-effort; bg=background; vi=video; vo=voice;
AIFS=Arbitration Inter-Frame Space; Txoplimit=transmission opportunity limit;
IDP=Intrusion detection and prevention; BGSCAN=background scan; PS=Power save;
HT=High throughput; A-MPDU=Aggregate MAC protocol data unit;
DFS=Dynamic Frequency Selection; CU=Channel Utilization;
EIRP=Effective Isotropic Radiated Power (Transmit Power + Max Antenna Gain + Max TX Chains Gain);
OFDMA=Orthogonal Frequency Division Multiple Access;
BSS_Color= Basic Service Set Color; TWT=Target Wake Time;

Summary state=Good;
Mode=access; Radio disabled=no;
Admin state=enabled; Operational state=up;
MAC addr=bcf3:103f:2bd0; MTU=1500;
Freq(Chan)=2462Mhz(11); EIRP power=21.01dBm(14dBm + 4.00dBi + 3.01dBi); Diversity=disabled;
Tx range=300m; Noise floor=-96dBm; Tx power control=disabled;
Radio profile=default_2.4ghz_gn; IDP profile=N/A;
Application Essentials profile=N/A;
Presence profile=N/A; Presence state=disabled;
Beacon interval=100; Max clients number=100;
Phymode=11ng; Short preamble mode=enabled;
Tx Chain=static 2; Rx Chain=static 2;
A-MPDU=enabled; Short guard interval=enabled;
Channel width=20Mhz; HT-protection=Legacy protect; Deny client=none;
AC=be; CWmin=4; CWmax=6; AIFS=3; Txoplimit=0; NoACK=disabled;
AC=bg; CWmin=4; CWmax=10; AIFS=7; Txoplimit=0; NoACK=disabled;
AC=vi; CWmin=3; CWmax=4; AIFS=1; Txoplimit=3008; NoACK=disabled;
AC=vo; CWmin=2; CWmax=3; AIFS=1; Txoplimit=1504; NoACK=disabled;
Rx packets=429368695; errors= 28213; dropped= 4;
Tx packets= 3433937; errors=1159192; dropped=150;
Rx bytes=2004640921 (1.867 GB); Tx bytes=877481336 (836.831 MB);
ACSP use last selection=disabled;
BGSCAN allow=enabled; BGSCAN during voice=disabled; BGSCAN interval=20 minutes;
BGSCAN with client=enabled; BGSCAN with PS client=disabled;
Number of BGSCAN=33692; Number of BGSCAN requested=34110; Number of BGSCAN missed=418;
DFS=disabled; Number of detected radar signals=0; DFS static-channel restore=disabled;
LLDP state=N/A; CDP state=N/A;
Rx airtime=524.79 s; Tx airtime=7886.45 s; CRC error airtime=4025.86 s;
Rx airtime percent=0.00%; Tx airtime percent=0.00%; CRC error airtime percent=0.12%;
Tx utilization=2%; Rx utilization=7%; Interference utilization=1%; Total utilization=10%;
Backhaul failover=disable;
Radio-share mode=off; channel-change=disable;
Running average Tx CU=2%; Rx CU=8%; Interference CU=1%; Noise=-95dBm;
Short term means average Tx CU=1%; Rx CU=7%; Interference CU=1%; Noise=-96dBm;
Snapshot Tx CU=1%; Rx CU=7%; Interference CU=1%; Noise=-96dBm;
CRC error rate=7%;
Benchmark 11a score=222000; 11b score=50500; 11g score=222000; 11n score=501000; 11ac score=889000; 11ax score=889000;
OFDMA downlink=disabled;
OFDMA uplink=disabled;
TWT=disabled;
BSS Color=0;
A-MSDU=disabled; A-MPDU limit=1048575;
VHT support in 2.4G interface=disabled;
Frameburst=enabled;
Alternate radio profile=disabled;
Primary radio profile=default_2.4ghz_gn;
DSSS 20Mhz power:
Board limit=20dBm(1) 20dBm(2) -(3) -(4); Regulatory limit=18dBm(1) 19dBm(2) -(3) -(4);
Spectral scan=off;
The signal by pass BPF.

6. We already tried it with and without the protocols. No effect.

Re: Problems with old WLAN Clients after changing the WLAN infrastructure

dpanev — Wed, 10 Mar 2021 00:20:37 GMT

You could try to reduce the radio power to 13-15 db and check it again

Re: Problems with old WLAN Clients after changing the WLAN infrastructure

Ovais_Qayyum — Wed, 10 Mar 2021 02:29:51 GMT

Were you using external antennas on AP5131? How high are the APs mounted?

How many SSIDs do you have in total?

From the RF plan perspective, it does not look that bad apart from the upper right corner of the screenshot where most of the APs are using channel 6 (purple area). But again, this is not 100% realistic and we need to have some RF packet capture taken from a client to figure out if there are excessive retransmissions of the frames probably due to the height of the APs, integrated antenna, and metallic objects in the warehouse.

Some helpful commands to verify channel/power issues:

#sho int // to see BSSID

#sho hive // to see hive name which can be used to identify Cloud APs on the same channel

#sho acsp neigh // to see background scan list and then look for VHM hive name to easily identify BSSID of Cloud AP on the same channel

This should give you an output similar to the following, that will allow you to see how many of your APs are on the same channel and how well can they see each other, if its too strong of a signal you have too many APs (or high Tx power) and you should either reduce the Tx power or turn off some of the APs (but I doubt this would be the case), if the signal is too low you have less APs.

wifi1(6) ACSP neighbor list (17/384): Bssid           Mode     Ssid/Hive                Chan Rssi(dBm) Aerohive AP  CU  CRC STA Channel-width VID  NVID be4d:fbbf:9860  Access   3sCompany-5G             36   -87       no           --  --  --  40+           -    -    206c:8a05:1924  Access   AOA                      36   -58       yes          7   17  2   20            1    1    206c:8a05:1920  Backhaul VHM-CYRUJRGN             36   -57       yes          7   17  1   20            1    1    989d:5de9:77aa  Access   kikobull-5G              40   -77       no           --  --  --  80            -    -    2405:8823:8f8b  Access   google                   149  -85       no           --  --  --  80            -    -    2405:8823:8546  Access   google                   149  -62       no           --  --  --  80            -    -    2405:8823:9b67  Access   google                   149  -75       no           --  --  --  80            -    -    3894:edf2:c882  Access   NETGEAR77-5G             149  -77       no           --  --  --  80            -    -    4065:a3ab:1097  Access   BELL918                  157  -89       no           --  --  --  80            -    -    989d:5de9:77ab  Access                            40   -76       no           --  --  --  80            -    -    989d:5de9:77af  Access                            40   -76       no           --  --  --  80            -    -    989d:5de9:77ad  Access                            40   -76       no           --  --  --  80            -    -    989d:5de9:77b0  Access                            40   -76       no           --  --  --  80            -    -    2605:8823:8f89  Access                            149  -86       no           --  --  --  80            -    -    2605:8823:8545  Access                            149  -61       no           --  --  --  80            -    -    bcf3:102b:80b0  Backhaul hive0                    36   -48       yes          0   0   0   20            1    1    36f1:50c4:47c0  Access   DIRECT-roku-L0J-417A8... 36   -54       no           --  --  --  20            -    -

To solve this issue, you need to first determine if it the application disconnect or client disassociation/disconnect. if its client disassociation/disconnect, the cause could be roaming, bad coverage etc. If its only application disconnect, it could be due to bad RF, retransmission to being with, and the best way to check it would be to connect a client to an AP, don't move the client and check if the application still disconnects.

While doing it take packet capture, without it we can’t determine the issues in an effective way.

Regards,

Ovais

Re: Problems with old WLAN Clients after changing the WLAN infrastructure

Anonymous — Fri, 12 Mar 2021 15:36:25 GMT

Well ok. Seems like the community page just deletes replies when they are above 3000 letters so my reply just got deleted before it was posted. So i will keep this one a little shorter.

The motorolas used external antennas.

Four

So i checked the acsp neighbor stats from my aps. Most of them can see one / two aps within the range of -50 to -65, the othe aps had above -70 / -80 dbm.

But i came across some aps like this one (he was in channel 11 on 2,4)

Bssid Mode Ssid/Hive Chan Rssi(dBm) Aerohive AP CU CRC STA Channel-width VID NVID
bcf3:103f:3f14 Access 8021X 11 -86 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:3f15 Access MDM 11 -86 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:3f16 Access PPSK 11 -86 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:2794 Access 8021X 11 -68 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:2795 Access MDM 11 -68 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:2796 Access PPSK 11 -68 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:1b94 Access 8021X 1 -83 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:1b95 Access MDM 1 -86 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:1b96 Access PPSK 1 -87 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:2dd4 Access 8021X 1 -80 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:2dd5 Access MDM 1 -80 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:2dd6 Access PPSK 1 -80 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:2294 Access 8021X 11 -65 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:2296 Access PPSK 11 -65 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:2295 Access MDM 11 -65 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:32d4 Access 8021X 6 -77 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:32d5 Access MDM 6 -78 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:32d6 Access PPSK 6 -79 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:6394 Access 8021X 11 -77 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:6395 Access MDM 11 -77 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:6396 Access PPSK 11 -77 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:1062:6795 Access PPSK 6 -82 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:1062:6796 Access MDM 6 -82 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:1062:6794 Access 8021X 6 -82 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:6695 Access MDM 11 -89 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:6696 Access PPSK 11 -88 yes 0 0 1 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:6694 Access 8021X 11 -88 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:2c95 Access MDM 6 -83 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:2c94 Access 8021X 6 -83 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:2c96 Access PPSK 6 -83 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:1b97 Access Stapler 1 -86 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:2797 Access Stapler 11 -71 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:1062:6797 Access Stapler 6 -82 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:2c97 Access Stapler 6 -83 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:2297 Access Stapler 11 -72 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:6397 Access Stapler 11 -74 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:3f17 Access Stapler 11 -85 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:2dd7 Access Stapler 1 -79 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:6697 Access Stapler 11 -88 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:32d7 Access Stapler 6 -76 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:4195 Access MDM 1 -90 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:1897 Access Stapler 1 -86 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:1896 Access PPSK 1 -86 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:1058:7797 Access Stapler 1 -88 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:1058:7795 Access 8021X 1 -87 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:1058:7796 Access MDM 1 -89 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:1058:7794 Access PPSK 1 -87 yes 0 0 1 20 6 1
bcf3:1068:fb57 Access Stapler 11 -88 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:1895 Access MDM 1 -86 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:1894 Access 8021X 1 -86 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:1068:fb56 Access PPSK 11 -89 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:1068:fb54 Access 8021X 11 -88 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:1068:fb55 Access MDM 11 -89 yes 0 0 1 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:1817 Access Stapler 6 -88 yes 0 0 1 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:1816 Access PPSK 6 -89 yes 0 0 2 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:1814 Access 8021X 6 -88 yes 0 0 1 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:1815 Access MDM 6 -87 yes 0 0 1 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:4197 Access Stapler 1 -88 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:2e17 Access Stapler 11 -88 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:2e14 Access 8021X 11 -89 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:2e16 Access PPSK 11 -91 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1

Why did he chose channel 11 even though the other two aps who are nearby are on the same. Is it because they have a too low signal strength for him to change it and he doesn’t see a problem in it?

I will try to get a packet capture and will visit the plant in two weeks to get some more information from the client side.

Re: Problems with old WLAN Clients after changing the WLAN infrastructure

Anonymous — Fri, 12 Mar 2021 15:47:51 GMT

So this one is from our “main ap” in the truck loading street. This is a very long hall with three aps in it. Its pretty empty besides the trucks in the middle of it getting loaded.

AC=access category; be=best-effort; bg=background; vi=video; vo=voice;
AIFS=Arbitration Inter-Frame Space; Txoplimit=transmission opportunity limit;
IDP=Intrusion detection and prevention; BGSCAN=background scan; PS=Power save;
HT=High throughput; A-MPDU=Aggregate MAC protocol data unit;
DFS=Dynamic Frequency Selection; CU=Channel Utilization;
EIRP=Effective Isotropic Radiated Power (Transmit Power + Max Antenna Gain + Max TX Chains Gain);
OFDMA=Orthogonal Frequency Division Multiple Access;
BSS_Color= Basic Service Set Color; TWT=Target Wake Time;

Summary state=Fair;
Mode=access; Radio disabled=no;
Admin state=enabled; Operational state=up;
MAC addr=bcf3:103f:6690; MTU=1500;
Freq(Chan)=2462Mhz(11); EIRP power=17.01dBm(10dBm + 4.00dBi + 3.01dBi); Diversit y=disabled;
Tx range=300m; Noise floor=-96dBm; Tx power control=disabled;
Radio profile=default_2.4ghz_gn; IDP profile=N/A;
Application Essentials profile=N/A;
Presence profile=N/A; Presence state=disabled;
Beacon interval=100; Max clients number=100;
Phymode=11ng; Short preamble mode=enabled;
Tx Chain=static 2; Rx Chain=static 2;
A-MPDU=enabled; Short guard interval=enabled;
Channel width=20Mhz; HT-protection=Legacy protect; Deny client=none;
AC=be; CWmin=4; CWmax=6; AIFS=3; Txoplimit=0; NoACK=disabled;
AC=bg; CWmin=4; CWmax=10; AIFS=7; Txoplimit=0; NoACK=disabled;
AC=vi; CWmin=3; CWmax=4; AIFS=1; Txoplimit=3008; NoACK=disabled;
AC=vo; CWmin=2; CWmax=3; AIFS=1; Txoplimit=1504; NoACK=disabled;
Rx packets=296832799; errors= 49058; dropped= 8;
Tx packets= 35562590; errors=4567503; dropped=30648;
Rx bytes=1675601068 (1.561 GB); Tx bytes=2871104053 (2.674 GB);
ACSP use last selection=disabled;
BGSCAN allow=enabled; BGSCAN during voice=disabled; BGSCAN interval=20 minutes;
BGSCAN with client=enabled; BGSCAN with PS client=disabled;
Number of BGSCAN=30911; Number of BGSCAN requested=36029; Number of BGSCAN misse d=5118;
DFS=disabled; Number of detected radar signals=0; DFS static-channel restore=dis abled;
LLDP state=N/A; CDP state=N/A;
Rx airtime=3234.11 s; Tx airtime=17740.56 s; CRC error airtime=1896.51 s;
Rx airtime percent=0.01%; Tx airtime percent=0.05%; CRC error airtime percent=0. 29%;
Tx utilization=1%; Rx utilization=3%; Interference utilization=0%; Total utiliza tion=4%;
Backhaul failover=disable;
Radio-share mode=off; channel-change=disable;
Running average Tx CU=2%; Rx CU=4%; Interference CU=2%; Noise=-95dBm;
Short term means average Tx CU=1%; Rx CU=4%; Interference CU=1%; Noise=-95dBm;
Snapshot Tx CU=1%; Rx CU=4%; Interference CU=2%; Noise=-95dBm;
CRC error rate=49%;
Benchmark 11a score=222000; 11b score=50500; 11g score=222000; 11n score=501000; 11ac score=889000; 11ax score=889000;
OFDMA downlink=disabled;
OFDMA uplink=disabled;
TWT=disabled;
BSS Color=0;
A-MSDU=disabled; A-MPDU limit=1048575;
VHT support in 2.4G interface=disabled;
Frameburst=enabled;
Alternate radio profile=disabled;
Primary radio profile=default_2.4ghz_gn;
DSSS 20Mhz power:
Board limit=20dBm(1) 20dBm(2) -(3) -(4); Regulatory limit=18dBm(1) 19dBm(2) -(3) -(4);
Spectral scan=off;
The signal by pass BPF.

I am currently noticing a very high crc rate. If i check the acsp neighbors he can see the other aps in the street maybe too good?

Bssid Mode Ssid/Hive Chan Rssi(dBm) Aerohive AP CU CRC STA Channel-width VID NVID
bcf3:103f:2dd4 Access 8021X 1 -81 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:2dd5 Access MDM 1 -81 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:2dd6 Access PPSK 1 -81 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:2c96 Access PPSK 6 -84 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:2c94 Access 8021X 6 -84 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:2c95 Access MDM 6 -84 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:1814 Access 8021X 6 -61 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:1815 Access MDM 6 -60 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:1816 Access PPSK 6 -59 yes 0 0 1 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:1f54 Access PPSK 1 -60 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:1f55 Access 8021X 1 -58 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:1f56 Access MDM 1 -62 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:0c16 Access PPSK 6 -80 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:0c14 Access 8021X 6 -81 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:0c15 Access MDM 6 -80 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:6394 Access 8021X 11 -80 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:6395 Access MDM 11 -80 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:6396 Access PPSK 11 -80 yes 0 0 1 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:2bd5 Access MDM 11 -84 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:1994 Access 8021X 11 -83 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:1995 Access MDM 11 -83 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:1996 Access PPSK 11 -83 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:2756 Access PPSK 6 -89 yes 0 0 1 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:2295 Access MDM 11 -91 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:1062:36d6 Access MDM 11 -87 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:2bd4 Access 8021X 11 -85 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:2bd6 Access PPSK 11 -84 yes 0 0 1 20 6 1
bcf3:1062:36d4 Access 8021X 11 -87 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:2296 Access PPSK 11 -90 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:2294 Access 8021X 11 -90 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:1894 Access 8021X 1 -86 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:1896 Access PPSK 1 -86 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:1b95 Access MDM 1 -84 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:1b94 Access 8021X 1 -83 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:1b96 Access PPSK 1 -89 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:1062:36d5 Access PPSK 11 -87 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:1895 Access MDM 1 -86 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:1094 Access 8021X 11 -86 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:1095 Access MDM 11 -86 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:1096 Access PPSK 11 -87 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:1997 Access Stapler 11 -79 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:1b97 Access Stapler 1 -87 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:0c17 Access Stapler 6 -82 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:2bd7 Access Stapler 11 -81 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:1817 Access Stapler 6 -60 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:1062:36d7 Access Stapler 11 -89 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:2797 Access Stapler 11 -90 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:2c97 Access Stapler 6 -84 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:2297 Access Stapler 11 -88 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:2757 Access Stapler 6 -85 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:1f57 Access Stapler 1 -59 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:1097 Access Stapler 11 -86 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:6397 Access Stapler 11 -81 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:2dd7 Access Stapler 1 -81 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:1897 Access Stapler 1 -85 yes 0 0 1 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:2755 Access MDM 6 -87 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:1068:f797 Access Stapler 6 -86 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:1157 Access Stapler 11 -88 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:1156 Access PPSK 11 -89 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:1058:7797 Access Stapler 1 -88 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:1155 Access MDM 11 -90 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:1154 Access 8021X 11 -89 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:1058:7796 Access MDM 1 -90 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:2754 Access 8021X 6 -87 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:2794 Access 8021X 11 -90 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:1068:f796 Access PPSK 6 -88 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:1058:7794 Access PPSK 1 -88 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:1058:7795 Access 8021X 1 -88 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:2795 Access MDM 11 -90 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:103f:2796 Access PPSK 11 -91 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:1068:f795 Access MDM 6 -87 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:1068:f794 Access 8021X 6 -87 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:1068:f8d7 Access Stapler 1 -90 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:1068:f8d5 Access MDM 1 -91 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
10e7:c657:7063 Access DIRECT-62-HP OfficeJe... 6 -70 no -- -- -- 20 - -
8807:4bb2:1f80 Access LG V10 6 -59 no -- -- -- 20 - -
bcf3:1068:f8d4 Access 8021X 1 -89 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:1068:f8d6 Access PPSK 1 -93 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1
bcf3:1062:6797 Access Stapler 6 -87 yes 0 0 0 20 6 1

I guess the power rate on all Aps is still too high? I noticed many of the aps got a pretty high crc rate, even though their summary state says “fair”. Shouldn’t they say “high collision” like written in this guide? https://extremeportal.force.com/ExtrArticleDetail?an=000079422

Re: Problems with old WLAN Clients after changing the WLAN infrastructure

dpanev — Fri, 12 Mar 2021 17:24:53 GMT

Try what i told you some posts ago 🙂

Re: Problems with old WLAN Clients after changing the WLAN infrastructure

Anonymous — Fri, 12 Mar 2021 17:28:28 GMT

Ah, missed that one. Thanks. 🙂

I am currently at max DB 14. Do you have any recommendations on how low i should minimum go? This already seems to be pretty low.

Re: Problems with old WLAN Clients after changing the WLAN infrastructure

dpanev — Fri, 12 Mar 2021 18:10:12 GMT

13-15 is what extreme says in their workshops.

Did you check your Rate Settings?:

Re: Problems with old WLAN Clients after changing the WLAN infrastructure

Anonymous — Fri, 12 Mar 2021 19:15:11 GMT

Yes. They are already configured like your screenshot.

Re: Problems with old WLAN Clients after changing the WLAN infrastructure

Ovais_Qayyum — Fri, 12 Mar 2021 23:42:43 GMT

I would wait for packet capture (you can take it remotely from any AP by following the screenshot in my previous response) to see if my suspicion about retransmissions is correct, which in fact will cause the application to terminate the session. If we see retransmission of packets then it would solely be an RF design problem, Tx power wouldn’t play much of a role in there.

Looking at the CRC error rate alone i.e. 46%, not many latency-sensitive applications will survive that.

Some other clues from our discussion so far:

1- 67 APs were replaced with 50 APs.

2- External antenna Vs. integrated antennas (this one alone can be causing this entire issue).

3- External antennas may have had different gain and radiation patterns for sure, which doesn’t match your current integrated antenna APs.

4- If the APs are deployed at a height of 30-36 feet (normal for warehouses) then integrated antennas are not a good choice due to the dipole type side-side Omni radiation pattern, which won't focus most of the signal on the ground.

Regards,

Ovais

Re: Problems with old WLAN Clients after changing the WLAN infrastructure

Anonymous — Mon, 15 Mar 2021 15:36:09 GMT

Hello Orvais,

I just checked the CRC Rates on two of the Aps which had a high rate on Friday again and know it’s pretty low. One ist at 9%, the other at 13%. The rretry rate is at 4% and 5%.

I’ve got two packet captures (one from friday and one from today). How i should i post them here? Guess with the character limit of 3000 i cant post really much.

What I’ve noticed so far is a decent amount of blocked requests by the ap because of too low bitrates (basic is 11mbit most of them are either 1mbit or 9).

But shouldn’t the newer and more “intelligent” aps able to cover the area as good as the old ones or atleast more optimized? We did place them like the wlan coverage by our partner reccomended them. I would guess that the motorola aps had way more overlapping cells than the current one causing more interferences. But that is only guess. I never heard of any intense problems with the old wlan for as long as i am working in the company.

We were not told about any disadvantages of using the 410cs for our infrasctructure.

Re: Problems with old WLAN Clients after changing the WLAN infrastructure

Ovais_Qayyum — Tue, 16 Mar 2021 00:16:38 GMT

Hi Florian,

You can upload the capture files to OneDrive/SharePoint or any other file-sharing service and share the link here. We have some obvious variables, 67 Vs 50 APs, Internal Vs external antennas which will change the coverage in your environment 100%. As for your question on “shouldn’t the newer and more “intelligent” aps able to cover the area as good as the old ones or at least more optimized?”

YES, provided we stick by the fundamentals of RF design, just can't beat the physics. And, let's also consider the fact that you are still using the new APs with the same old clients, which will make your APs work in backward compatibility mode. Hence, performance will be limited to the capability of clients, you won’t be able to take full advantage of the advanced RF features that the new AP has to offer.

Do you remember which external antennas on the AP5131 did you use? model no. will help. I can then compare the coverage pattern on AP5131 external with external and the AP410C.

Regards,

Ovais

Re: Problems with old WLAN Clients after changing the WLAN infrastructure

Anonymous — Tue, 16 Mar 2021 14:45:45 GMT

Hello Orvais,

if i remember correctly it was a some sort of redundancy coverage. Some areas had redundancy some not. But i am not shure and none of my colleagues is.

One feedback i got yesterday from our plant is that in the loading street where we have a pretty empty hall, they also get many disconnects within the application. They also said the more forklifts in the loading hall the more disconnects. They even said that it looks like that only one forklift is able to work and then the next one “in the row” gets a connection and is able to work.

Most of the things i posted in here were from the “main” ap in the middle of the loading hall. It’s this area on the screenshot i posted, with three APs (channel 1,6 and 11). The ones you can see at the top or in the corners are either outdoor aps or in different halls.

I have checked the three aps in the hall right now and their summary state is on all three “good”. The CRC rate right now is between 8% and 17%. I will check these three aps again as soon as the number of forklifts in the loading hall rises up due to more trucks being loaded.

Could it help to configure everything down have the most sort of default wlan, atleast for the 2,4ghz? Like deactivating every sort of helping mechanism (short guard interval, band steering, etc.), activating every bitrate, raise the max. signal strength, since we only need the forklifts to be working properly.

Like i said, i am sure the old infrasctructure had massive overlaps in channels and cells.

And no, sadly i dont know these antenna kits and couldn’t find them on the web so far.

Can you check if this link works? I may have to creater longer captures:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/11vo1zmd8s3aie6/local-2021031575615UTC-BCF3103F6680-wifi0.pcap?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ktl9mcvhgdz9dwp/local-20210312124219UTC-BCF3103F6680-wifi0.pcap?dl=0

Re: Problems with old WLAN Clients after changing the WLAN infrastructure

Ovais_Qayyum — Thu, 18 Mar 2021 11:26:14 GMT

It took me some time to check the packet capture, only one capture file had some meaningful data. The good thing is at least in the captured data the RF looks ok. I don’t see any retransmission of the frames and if you see the packet sequence, there is not much of a difference RSSI. it looks consistent.

One other thing that I have noticed is the channel utilization caused by the SSID “Stapler”, this SSID is comsuming most of the airtime on channel 11. I could only see channel 11 in the capture because the AP you might have used to capture the data was on channel 11 as well.

The Block Ack that you mentioned in your previous response is not a concern, its just a mechanism for the AP to send acknowldements in blocks instead of individual acknowledgments which consumes more airtime.

I say you try following settings in the AP device template under radio interface settings:

Deny connection requests from legacy clients using - 11b (Enable to get rid of 11b legacy clients)

Background Scan - OFF

High Density Configuration - OFF

Band Steering - OFF

Client Load Balancing - OFF

Tx Beamforming - OFF

MU MIMO - OFF

Dynamic Channel Switching - OFF (keep it OFF for a while)

Weak Signal Probe Request Suppression - ON (set value to 15dbm first and then wait to see the diff., it should help free up the channels)

If all of this does not improve the situation then I would recommend to create a test WPA2 SSID and connect a test client with it to test the connectivity and see if faces the same problem.

Send me output of #show int wifi0 counter from few APs where you see issues the most.

Regards,

Ovais